Curse

Kale Ironfist · May 28, 2007, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna Star

6x Holy Veil

You really like Holy Veil don't you? Why no love for Smite Hex?

MithranArkanere · May 28, 2007, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Mhenlo have at least one NF skill in NF outposts...

But... better than that... I would make them have 2..5 builds available... and you could see them and choose them by talking to them or in the Partuy Search panel...

It would be even better if you had more options the more campaigns you own...

You have Prophecies... Cynn has two builds... one cor and one Prophecies...
You get Factions... and she gets one more...
You get Nightfall and she gets Savannah Heat or Searing Flames... XD...

That would be great...

Gaile Gray · May 29, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Good thread, and some excellent ideas here. However, I do agree that henchmen should carry native skills. I don't think we can pick and choose skills from all campaigns for any indivual campaign's henchies.

(BTW, my request was genuine, and intended with good will.)

Age · May 29, 2007, 12:57 AM // 00:57

If it isn't any trouble can we get some improvements on normal mode henchmen.I would really like to see Stefan and Thom get some better damaging skill in their weapons mastery line.It would be nice to see Lina have guardian over shielding hands as well as mend ailment.

bhavv · May 29, 2007, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Good thread, and some excellent ideas here. However, I do agree that henchmen should carry native skills. I don't think we can pick and choose skills from all campaigns for any indivual campaign's henchies.

How about the possibility to simply customise the henchmens skill bars as we like?

hallomik · May 29, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

what if we gave HM henchies secondaries? There are some nice Mo/Me builds out there to toss in a little interrupt/energy management.

TheSlyOne · May 29, 2007, 01:07 AM // 01:07

I must agree with Gaile on this one. If you make the Hench as good as people, then what's the incentive to play with humans? This is an MMO so it needs to be multiplayer. I also agree with the native skills rule. It would be weird to see Cynn with Searing Flames. Just plain weird. I know HM is hard, but that's why they called it Hard Mode. They could have called it 'Slightly More Challenging Mode' but then no one would play it.

bhavv · May 29, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSlyOne

I must agree with Gaile on this one. If you make the Hench as good as people, then what's the incentive to play with humans?

I cant find Humans to play what I want to, when I want to in the game, particularly for HM. I still thouroughly enjoy playing PVP, elite missions, and FoW/UW with my guild/alliance. However, finding people in PVE for HM missions has become a chore.

Stormlord Alex · May 29, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Hmm... While I'm in favour of maybe just tweaking some of the hench bars a bit, to remove redundant skills (Seriously... Practiced Stance on a ranger with KINDLE!?) I don't want to see them with uber-leet haXx pwnage builds, like SF Cynn... It'd just make PvE even easier and further kill the already ailing PuG

Also, I'm not a fan of Veil on AI... They can't seem to get the hang of it - I'd say Smite instead, same cost/recharge, effectively the same, yet the AI can handle it.

bhavv · May 29, 2007, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormlord Alex

I don't want to see them with uber-leet haXx pwnage builds, like SF Cynn... It'd just make PvE even easier and further kill the already ailing PuG

Also, I'm not a fan of Veil on AI... They can't seem to get the hang of it - I'd say Smite instead, same cost/recharge, effectively the same, yet the AI can handle it.

If you care to read the opening sentance, you will see that these suggestions are for HM only, not 'easy' mode. I am not suggesting changing skill bars in normal mode because there is no need.

Whenever I use veil on my heroes they use it just fine. Though smite hex might be a nicer alternative as the AI uses both skills in the same manner, and it has sme extra damage output.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hallomik

what if we gave HM henchies secondaries? There are some nice Mo/Me builds out there to toss in a little interrupt/energy management.

That would be a dream come true if it could happen.

Hyper Cutter · May 29, 2007, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I don't think we can pick and choose skills from all campaigns for any indivual campaign's henchies.

What about henchies available in multiple chapters? (i.e. Cynn, Devona, Eve, Aidan, and to a lesser extent Mhenlo)

Kale Ironfist · May 29, 2007, 03:09 AM // 03:09

While SerenitySilverstar posted the link on the first page already, I'd like to re-remind everyone of the thread which had great ideas for Hard Mode henchmen: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10154009

Let's try giving a buff to Stefan shall we?
His original skillset is this:
[skill]"Charge!"[/skill][skill]Balanced Stance[/skill][skill]Griffon's Sweep[/skill][skill]Healing Signet[/skill][skill]Power Attack[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

I think it should be this:
[skill]"Charge!"[/skill][skill]Sever Artery[/skill][skill]Gash[/skill][skill]Bull's Strike[/skill][skill]Final Thrust[/skill][skill]Shield Stance[/skill][skill]Healing Signet[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Reasoning: Of Core+Prophecies, Sword warriors really only had two elites worth choosing from: "Charge!" and Bull's Charge. Bull's Charge is out of the question due to the fact that henchmen will waste it by using a skill, thus ending it. Of other elites that are possible, Warrior's Endurance isn't worth bringing in this type of old GvG build, and Hundred Blades doesn't do enough to warrant bringing it. Ever.

Ah, but what about Reyna?
Her original skill set is this:
[skill]Kindle Arrows[/skill][skill]Dual Shot[/skill][skill]Power Shot[/skill][skill]Practiced Stance[/skill][skill]Troll Unguent[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

I think it should be this:
[skill]Apply Poison[/skill][skill]Crippling Shot[/skill][skill]Hunter's Shot[/skill][skill]Distracting Shot[/skill][skill]Precision Shot[/skill][skill]Whirling Defense[/skill][skill]Troll Unguent[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Reasoning: She's the best archer this side of the Tarnished Coast, and bears the nickname "Eagle Eye", so she had better have a skill bar that befits that name! She's now a hardy Ranger, doing what they do best, debilitate the enemy. AI might not work well though, due to Crippling Shots 1 second recharge. The interrupt might not be that useful either, due to Hard Mode enemies having half activation times and half recharges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

What about henchies available in multiple chapters? (i.e. Cynn, Devona, Eve, Aidan, and to a lesser extent Mhenlo)

Since they're core henchmen, they should only have core skills. The above thread on the Hard Mode Henchmen challenge made viable builds for all the core henchmen using only core skills. Or at least I did.

bhavv · May 29, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Kale, without meaning any offense, the skill sets you are suggesting and any skill combination that is created using just core and campaign specific skills is not going to be able to suffice in HM.

Some of you are mentioning balance without even the slightest idea of what would actually work in HM. I would like to actually have skill sets on henchmen that make HM possible to play. This means balancing it so that every mission and every vanquishable area is possible to be done using heroes + henchmen when there are no other players available to help. This wont work using just core + campaign specific skills.

Try playing Vizunah Square in HM with 7 henchmen. The outposts are virtually deserted with no one looking for a HM party, and every time you enter the other team is made fully of hench.

Even if you did manage to create an organised 8 player human team, the other team would still be henchmen 90% of the time. The henchmens skillsets need to be balanced to make these missions possible to beat.

Kale Ironfist · May 29, 2007, 08:14 AM // 08:14

You have to realise bhavv, that henchmen were designed to be LESSER than either Heroes or Players, so their skillsets will REFLECT that. You can't ask that Alesia bring Dismiss Condition or Light of Deliverance due to lore and balance. THAT is why the skillbars for Stefan and Reyna will only ever have Prophecies and Core skills ONLY.

Apart from that, even the Devs have thought that it's possible to hero/hench hard mode (and there are even players on this forum who have done so) with their currently poorly thought out builds. Thus, if this ever gets implemented, it'll just make it easier to complete, and not make it go from the impossible to the possible.

Meat Axe · May 29, 2007, 08:59 AM // 08:59

I haven't played too much of HM at the moment, but so far I'm having little difficulty using a hench/hero party. The only area I failed to vanquish was Eastern Frontier, which I gave up on since Grawl are just ridiculously strong (when I say gave up, I mean will come back later with a different build. Probably containing Norgu, who I didn't have when I first tried). I don't see why henchmen should be upgraded with skills from continents they are not from, simply because you can beat HM with them at the moment, although not very easily sometimes. I think simply tweaking their skill bars a bit to get rid of the useless skills will suffice, replacing them with skills available from the continent that the hench is on.

Obey The Cat · May 29, 2007, 09:56 PM // 21:56

smite hex > holy veil

throw dirt is extremly bad used by heroes.

the ranger npc will run at beginning of a battle to the front. melee ranger ftl.

Winterclaw · May 29, 2007, 11:56 PM // 23:56

I'd like to see some skills that are appropriate for the area. Cynn really shouldn't be using fire magic in the Ring of Fire.

The main 5 that travel between games should have mostly proph skills but maybe 1-2 from the other games in those campaigns. Thus in NF Cynn would have mind blast or SF as her elite.

At the very least, Mhenlo should bring zealot's fire. Other than that, I'd have to look at their skill lists to give more specific suggestions.

SerenitySilverstar · May 30, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

You have to realise bhavv, that henchmen were designed to be LESSER than either Heroes or Players, so their skillsets will REFLECT that.

Correct.

Henchmen skills bars can't be customizable - that would simply make them heroes.

As for "balance" Bhavv, I was not talking about "skill balancing", I mean the balance between skill synergy per character, and the synergy between each team member. There are skills in each campaign/core that are duplicates, or just as efficient as other campaign skills.

And have I played HM? Sure. The majority of my Vanquishing Title is being done with H/H.

SerenitySilverstar · May 30, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Back to the real discussion.

Henchman: Sogolon
Campaign: Nightfall
Original Skill Set: Aria of Restoration, Ballad of Restoration, Cautery Signet {E}, Leaders Comfort, Mending Refrain, Signet of Synergy, Rez Signet
New Hard Mode Skill Set:
[skill]Aria of Restoration[/skill][skill]Song of Restoration[/skill][skill]Zealous Anthem[/skill][skill]Aria of Zeal[/skill][skill]Leader's Comfort[/skill][skill]Burning Refrain[/skill][skill]Spear of Lightning[/skill][skill]Signet of Return[/skill]

I posted this one in my other thread but wanted to bring it over here too.

I like Sogolon's healing ability, but also feel he can be a bit more useful with a) some energy return (in place of a Blood Rit from a Necro) b) a permanent rez c) some extra damage dealing.

*edit to ask a question*

Here's one for the devs, or if anyone actually knows (I did check the wikis, but couldn't see anything on them about it).

Regarding hench attribute points and runes - do hench use just the base attribute point spread without runes? Or do they have runes in their major attributes, plus runes of vigor/absorption etc to help balance out their damage taking?

If they DON'T have runes, would it be possible to add to the discussion the possibility of having them "runed up"?

Thanks

Shawn The Divine · May 30, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Should remove the bit of code that's telling heros/hench that Zealous Benediction is a target other ally skill. Somewhere after the PvP preview it was changed to target ally, however heros/hench were apparently not updated - they will never heal themselves with ZB.